Gordon Fee on Eternal Security
Gordon Fee is a prof at Regent and an ordained minister in the Assemblies of God. Listen to this perceptive quote from Paul, the Spirit, and the People of God. By the way, this book is excellent. It was life-changing for me.
"I grew up in a church where the buzz phrases 'eternal security' and 'once saved, always saved' were bad news. People who believed so, I was told, even if they did not intend it, encouraged 'easy-believism' and 'cheap grace'; that is, peopled believed in Christ for salvation but failed to exhibit it in their lives. They were eternally secure, so why get uptight about how they lived? Only later did I learn that this language was a popular distortion of Calvin's perseverance of the saints. Calvin believed (rightly so) that God enables his holy ones, his saints, to persevere to the end, and in that they were secure--eternally. Unfortunately, what was sometimes advocated as Calvinism often did offer false security to unbelievers, people who wanted a passport to heaven without becoming citizens."
Then, he adds this in a footnote.
"I should add, to fill out the debate at the popular level, that too much ranting against 'eternal security' often led to insecurity. My way of putting it is that a lot of us used to 'get saved' every Sunday night because we had sinned during the week! This equally bad theology led to more spiritual neuroses than one cares to remember."
"I grew up in a church where the buzz phrases 'eternal security' and 'once saved, always saved' were bad news. People who believed so, I was told, even if they did not intend it, encouraged 'easy-believism' and 'cheap grace'; that is, peopled believed in Christ for salvation but failed to exhibit it in their lives. They were eternally secure, so why get uptight about how they lived? Only later did I learn that this language was a popular distortion of Calvin's perseverance of the saints. Calvin believed (rightly so) that God enables his holy ones, his saints, to persevere to the end, and in that they were secure--eternally. Unfortunately, what was sometimes advocated as Calvinism often did offer false security to unbelievers, people who wanted a passport to heaven without becoming citizens."
Then, he adds this in a footnote.
"I should add, to fill out the debate at the popular level, that too much ranting against 'eternal security' often led to insecurity. My way of putting it is that a lot of us used to 'get saved' every Sunday night because we had sinned during the week! This equally bad theology led to more spiritual neuroses than one cares to remember."
posted by Daniel | 9:09 AM
20 Comments:
Indeed. The OSAS position is a distortion of biblical truth and is not an accurate reflection of Calvinisms "Perseverance of the Saints".
I think a solid point is also made about making sure that we never grant unbelievers false assurance. It is directly in opposition to preaching the gospel.
mike
Perseverence of the Saints is one point of Calvinism that I have not really even looked into and don't really know what it means. But from this it appears to mean that God gives the saints the ability to persevere to the end.
I know of someone who was once a devout Christian. In fact, he was a Calvinist and very, very knowledgeable of God's word. He began debating skeptics/unbelievers. This debating led him to begin to doubt the bible and now he denies the existence of God. He claims to be an atheist. I guess the answer is that this guy was never really saved?
I read a guy's blog who claimed to have been a Christian for 31 years. He is now an atheist. I never asked him any questions, but his blog stated that He was a fundamentalist. He began to realize that a lot of what he was taught was wrong so he basically threw the baby out with the bath water. I guess he was never saved either?
I am undecided on this issue, but lean toward a person being able to lose their salvation because of the "if you continue" verses. I don't believe that if a person gets caught up in sin that he will go to hell (he will lose rewards in heaven), but if his sin takes him so far away that he loses his faith and denies God then that is when loses his salvation.
In practise, the Calvinistic doctrine does not necessarilly differ from the denial of Eternal Security.
If warnings are given to us that if we fall into sin we are not really saved, then these warnings are superfluos if we have assurance of salvation or else true assurance is impossible.
I am a little surprised that you did not mention that there are some who contend for Eternal Security without insisting on the final perserverance of all believers.
Every Blessing in Christ
Matthew
Dawn,
Your summary is basically correct. The doctrine means that God does not simply grant Saving Grace to a sinner and then leave them on their own to make it until death where their salvation is immortalized. Rather, God grants Saving Grace to a sinner and immediately gives them Eternal Life (therefore, it could not end - eg., see John 3:36) His Grace then does not cease but is maintains and sustains a believer for the rest of their life.
The natural implication, as you noticed, is that if a person claims to be a Christian but then falls away, then they were not in fact saved. You have provided some specific examples. It is very difficult for any of us to comment on given examples that we are not familiar with. Our job is not to ultimately judge who is and who is not regenerate. However, there are two possibilities. The person could in fact be a real Christian and living in rebellion right now. The other option is that a person had a knowledge of God/Christ that is similar to the Demons. This belief is not sufficient. Accomanying it may be some good deeds, good feelings, years of attending church, etc. However, none of this is sufficient for Salvation apart from the regenerating work of the Holy Spirit who gives us eyes to see just a glimpse of God that so utterly consumes us that we perservere towards that Glory for all eternity. From this could also be drawn a principle of progressive santification. Since that is somewhat of another tangent, I will leave it for another day.
Hopefully that clarifies it (rather than muddies the water).
In Christ alone,
mike
Mike, how does one know that he is renerated by the Holy Spirit?
Mike, how does one know that he is renerated by the Holy Spirit?
The first important point is that not everyone will have assurance. It is something that all should have, but as a result of sin we may not have it. A person who doubts his Salvation may very well need to test themselves to make sure they are in the faith.
Now, having said that, the question becomes whether we can have legitimate assurance.
One thing that must first be said is to say that in Reformed Soteriology the question "How do you know you are saved" and "How do you know you are regenerate" are the same question. So, if you believe you have know that you are saved, then you also can know that you are regenerate ... for the play out the same.
So then, how can we know?
First, we must believe the testimony of God. In this case trusting verses like John 3:16, John 5:24, Romans 10:9-10, and lots of others are important.
However, this verse applies only to those who have faith/believed in/upon Jesus.
However, we are warned about a wrong kind of faith and a belief that even the demons have.
So what else do we need?
Well we look at what the signs of a believer are. Many passages could be referenced. We could consider the fruit of the Spirit, etc. However, I'll suggest verses from 1John:
1:6, 8, 10
2:3-5, 9
4:20
What does this include? Obedience to God, Opposition to Sin, Love for the Brethren, Overcoming the world, etc.
Lastly, what seals it? The witness/testimony of the Holy Spirit.
Consider Romans 8:15-16.
See also 1John 4:13:
"We know that we live in him and he in us, because he has given us of his Spirit."
Usually people who deny assurance really do not like this last point. However, if it is a point that the Scriptures teach, then it is a point I feel compelled to make.
In Christ alone,
mike
So, suppose I believe on the Lord Jesus Christ for salvation and I am not sure if I love the brethren enougth or whether I really have the strength to overcome the world? Is there a possibility that I might not really be saved?
Essentially under this line of thinking, I am actually in the same position as the Arminian who fears loosing his salvation. I can have no certainty that I am really saved because I may not be doing sufficent works to demonstrate that I do not have what you call a faith of demons.
Have you ever visited Antonio's blog Free Grace Theology? There is a link on thsi blog. He has been dealing with James chapter 2 and examining whether the faith of demons is a false faith as you hold or whether it is a genuine faith that saves, but which is inadequate to withstand the tempatations and trials of the present world.
Every Blessing in Christ
Matthew
Matthew,
I'm an Arminian (although I haven't completely made up my mind about P) and I'm assured of my salvation. I'm certain that I'm saved.
BTW, it's not as much that I fear losing my salvation as I fear God. I know that I need Jesus to stand before Him.
Oh yeah, I added a link to your site as well.
God bless
Thanks for the link, that was kind.
I reject Calvinism and do not mind being called an Arminian.
I think the Eternal Security (not Perserverance) view should lead us to fear God because it makes the warnings of the New Testament more relevant.
The warnings to the believer are not of loss of salvation but rather of loss of heavenly privilege, chastening and ultimately destruction of the flesh.
I believe I am very conscious of the possibility of chastening. If I consider doing soemthing that I know to be wrong, I always have in my mind the feat that the Lord will do soemthing dreadful to me, though my salvation be secure in Christ
Every Blessing in Christ
Matthew
So, suppose I believe on the Lord Jesus Christ for salvation and I am not sure if I love the brethren enougth or whether I really have the strength to overcome the world?
A person living in a perpetual state of sin does not get assurance. They could still be saved but the blessing of Assurance comes to those who are walking in the light.
If your "faith" looks like the kind the James describes as a faith not of Salvation then you certainly should test yourself to make sure you are in the faith.
In Christ alone,
mike
It is certainly true that one would not feel much assuranc ein apostasy.
However, if one needs to test one's faith it must be a strange kind of faith.
I am sure that I believe that I am in England. I do not need to test myself to be sure that I believe this. It would be foolish to ask myself if I believe this only in an intellectual manner. I either believe I am in England or I believe I am somewhere else.
Likewise, I ought to know whether or not I believe that I have received eternal life through Jesus Christ.
I think James chapter 2 doe snto concern the validity of faith but the outcome of faith. A man who has faith but no works may be saved, but hsi faith will be useless in his present situation of trials and temptations. This I believe, is James' concern, not the nature of the faith that justifies.
Every Blessing in Christ
Matthew
However, if one needs to test one's faith it must be a strange kind of faith.
I am sure that I believe that I am in England. I do not need to test myself to be sure that I believe this. It would be foolish to ask myself if I believe this only in an intellectual manner. I either believe I am in England or I believe I am somewhere else.
Likewise, I ought to know whether or not I believe that I have received eternal life through Jesus Christ.
You may indeed find it strange to test yourself but it is the admonition that Paul gives to those in Corinth (2Cor 13:5). The purpose of this verse is for them to test themselves and conclude that they are in the faith, however, he leaves open the option that they should fail the test. If you find this weird then I must suggest that your issue is with Paul and not with me.
A man who has faith but no works may be saved, but hsi faith will be useless in his present situation of trials and temptations. This I believe, is James' concern, not the nature of the faith that justifies.
That may be your belief but it is in fact a belief that contradicts the Scriptures.
James 2:14
What use is it, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but he has no works? Can that faith save him?
You may not be able to tell the implied answer in English, but in Greek the implied answer is a categoric No. This type of faith, says James, cannot save a man. You can take my word on this, search commentaries, look at a Greek textbook, etc., but there is no way around this verse. If you decide to look it up in a Greek Textbook then look under Ways to Ask a Question and the construction begins with mE (mu eta).
It is certainly true that one would not feel much assuranc ein apostasy.
I am glad that we agree here. In a state of maintained sin, the person cannot and should not feel assurance. If they do, they must ask themselves whether it could be false assurance (not everyone who says to be Lord Lord in the last day will be saved).
In Christ alone,
mike
Is the examination of 2 Cor 13:5 examination of consistency of living within the faith or the nature of the faith itself? I would suggest that you are reading a theological concept of 'false faith' into that verse that is foreign to it.
I would ask you again whether you have read Antonio's discussion on the subject of James 2. As I said, there is a link on this blog.
Your assumption is that 'saved' in the context of that chapter means being saved unto eternal life. The subject of eternal salvation is not dealt with in James' epistle. It instead deals primarily with temporal position in this life.
Paul says that faith does save. Why interpret faith here in such a way as to contradict Paul?
In order to establish your position here; you need to show that:
1. The faith of that verse is not a genuine faith but a spurious faith.
2. 'Saved' here means saved unto eternal life.
Both of these conclusions ignore the context of the verse within the epsitle. James addresses the epistle to brethren, believers who were saved. If they are saved, then they have no need to worry that their faith is genuine. To deny this is to make faith ultimately uncertain.
What of the man who has just been converted. If his faith depends upon the testing of works, then how can he be certain that he has eternal life. Maybe he has the 'faith of demons'?
As regards 'saved', you are importing a meaning to this word that is not justified from the context of James. James does not concern justification or eternal life, but practical aspects of the Christian life.
'If they do, they must ask themselves whether it could be false assurance (not everyone who says to be Lord Lord in the last day will be saved).'
This passage in its immediate context concerns false teachers, not carnal believers. Where does Jesus imply that these people have some kind of 'false faith' in Christ for salvation? These people have simply made a profession of acknowledging Christ's lordship. We are not saved by believing in the Lordship of Christ, but by believing on Him for eternal life.
Every Blessing in Christ
Matthew
Mike, thanks for your response. I agree that some people only have a "belief" in Jesus, but are not believing on Jesus.
Mike: "A person who doubts his Salvation may very well need to test themselves to make sure they are in the faith."
And if they find they are not, what do they do about it?
First: What must we do?
At this point, we must pray that God has opened their eyes to see their terrible estate before Him. That He has given just a glimpse of His glory and that they are made to see the wretchedness of their sin. We must pray that God has given them Spiritual life (regeneration/born again/whatever word you want) for we must confess with Paul that "a natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised. But he who is spiritual appraises all things, yet he himself is appraised by no one."
Second: What must they do?
They must confess their sin to God and cry out for forgiveness. They must see and love and delight in the light of the Gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God. They see their own righteousness as dirty rags before God and trust only in the righteousness of Christ. They place faith/believe in /trust in Jesus knowing that He was crucified bearing the wrath of God. They know that just as Jesus was also raised from the dead, so to will they. They must then work out their salvation with fear and trembling; for it is God who is at work in them to will and to work for His good pleasure. This "working out" is not so that they can earn their salvation. They have already confessed that their own works could never merit them salvation. Rather, it is what saints who have been regenerated by the Spirit and have trusted in Christ necessarily do. For faith produces good works.
Many other things could be said, but the way I understand your question is that you are concerned with how one becomes one of the faith (a Christian) and immediately after.
If I've missed anything or have been confusing, feel free to let me know and I will attempt to reword it.
In Christ alone,
mike
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I don't understand how one can test themselves, if they are not born of God, since they cannot understand the things of the Spirit. If they can't understand, then how can they know they are not saved?
Well, first one has to consider the context of the "test yourself to see if you are in the faith" verse. The main point of Paul here is to urging people who are in the faith to test themself. They are then to live in light of that reality.
However, the converse could be taken. You do make a solid point. Many people will remain deceived because they are blinded from the truth. They may "try to test themself" but conclude that they are in fact saved.
However, we can hope and pray that a person who does begin to look into it will have their heart regenerated by the Holy Spirit and that their eyes would be opened to see the glory of God revealed in Jesus Christ. At this point they see how utterly short they fall and would turn in repentance to trust in Jesus.
It is hard to speak of this temporally since it probably happens nearly at the same time (however God can and does work progressively at times). However, I am more speaking of a logical progression of things.
To summarize, I am not suggesting that a person could properly examine themselves and then perfectly agree with God that they are not saved and then do steps A through G to become saved. That is simply not how the Bible describes Salvation. However, I see nothing wrong with urging a man to consider the plight of their state of being and then Praying that God would use this to "make [them] alive with Christ".
Hopefully that answers it a little better.
In Christ alone,
mike
Thanks for your response Mike.
"We know that we have passed from death to life, because we love each other. Anyone who does not love remains in death. Anyone who hates a brother or sister is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life residing in him. " - 1 Jn. 3.14-15 (NIV)
Is it within the community of God's people (across the denominations), and within the community alone, that assurance of salvation takes place. It is when love for fellow Christians is expressed that believers may know that eternal life is truly in them. This love is not how believers "pass from death to life", but how believers know they have "passed from death to life." And, this life expressed in the form of love cannot be expressed in isolation (whatever that means). It always must happen among believers, and only then may one truly have assurance of God's salvation.
God came to save a people for His name... Not just individuals isolated from one another. That is why believers are called "God's Family", "God's Temple", and "Christ's Body" (Fee, 63-69).
I hope this helps!
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